Like Nancy Pelosi said, "We don't know whats in it until we pass it", well it passed.... Time to run and take cover before it hits the fan.

Your health care premiums have - for your whole life - paid for the uninsured. That's ALWAYS been the case. Now, those that can afford it HAVE to pay their own way - instead of freeloading off the taxpayers and insured. That is why the individual mandate was so important.

This is a CONSERVATIVE principle, invented by the Heritage Foundation (a CONSERVATIVE think tank), found constitutional by a CONSERVATIVE SCOTUS. It was also implemented by the man who is seeking to defeat Obama in the next election.

Porter - if the Individual Mandate is a conservative principle, invented by the Heritage Foundation, why the Hertiage Foundation have this article
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/01/obamacare-and-the-individual-mandate-violating-personal-liberty-and-federalism

And also call for the Repeal of Obamacare
http://savingthedream.org/what-it-covers/medicaid/

"Repeal Obamacare
This ill-conceived law adds trillions of dollars in government spending to a health care system that is already unaffordable. It also increases federal controls and imposes heavy costs on states, businesses, and households. The Heritage plan repeals Obamacare and replaces it with a consumer-centered health care system that America can afford."

Yes, it was passed to specifically help illegal immigrants. It's part of the entire conspiracy. I think that bill is way above anything you may understand.

Illegal immigrants are not covered by Obamacare. Your premiums will most likely go down because all eligible healthy, young people will be required to join. Spreading the risk over a larger pool of people lowers costs.

Your premiums increased when the bill was first passed. It will only get worse now. Your income taxes will also increase,because Medicaid will be greatly expanded. ObamaCare does nothing to lower premiums. Romney's original plan as Governor of Massachusetts was not passed by the legislature. The democratic majority passed their own version, overriding his vetoes and now Massachusetts has the highest premiums in the country. It also caused a big drop in business start ups as companies couldn't afford to insure all employees so they went to other states. More government control.

Chris - they were for it when personal responsibility was a conservative principle.

The mandate, requiring every American to purchase health insurance, appeared in a 1989 published proposal by Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation called "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans," which included a provision to "mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance."

Porter- you realize the year is now 2012 ?

When uninsured people, regardless of their citizenship status, go to the emergency room, we ALL pay for them. We are already paying for illegal immigrants' healthcare, with or without this mandate. We are also paying for everyone else who does not have health insurance. Wouldn't requiring all Americans to carry some sort of insurance make the costs go down? And wouldn't it make it easier to identify illegals who show up at the ER and do not have insurance? I don't know, the more I look at this and mull it over, the better I think it is. I mean, we all have to have auto insurance, don't we? A great many of us will never have an auto accident ... but ALL of us will get sick. We will all suffer some sort of catastrophic and expensive illness at some point in our lives. It's not a question of "if", but rather "when." It may happen tomorrow, or 30 years from now ... but it it will happen. Personally, I think it's a good thing for everyone to have some sort of coverage. JMO.

Chris - re-read my post and it'll make sense.

President Obama...Is it a tax or isn't it?!?! Did you lie to the American public when you came up with this plan? If you were honest about it being a tax back then, you clearly would not have had the votes (even in your own party) to pass it. P.S. By the most conservative insurance estimates, a typical family of 4 will be paying via premiums/affordable health insurance "tax" no less than $25,000/year. Why? Employers will drop health insurance coverage for their workers and pay the far less expensive penalty/"tax" in lieu of covering them. Thank you Mr. President! You own this one.

You would do well to read the bill. Illegal immigrants are NOT covered under this.

Very Bad day in America!!!!!!!!!!!
Will they tell you soon you cannot buy a foreign car,,or maybe you are only allowed to buy a car made in Michigan.

@Laura....this bill doesn't have to cover illegals. They just stroll right into ER's across the country with false info and get treated. The women waddle in there in labor and get offered a bed and all the necessities to have their baby. Believe me....I've seen it. I am a nurse.

The Heritage Foundation *did* give birth to Obamacare.

Like Romney, they're simply lying about their previous support.

Proof: http://tinyurl.com/7swmd9f

For many years, with our horrible health care system, our health care bills HAVE already increased a LOT to cover uninsured people, including illegal aliens and everyone else who comes to the emergency room for treatment. We pay at least twice as much as the rest of the civilized world for health care, and get worse care. Look it up. Not to mention you also pay the HUGE salaries of the health insurance CEOs etc. Obama's health care bill will get you paying less, since everyone will have insurance, your insurance will be better, and if the insurance companies take too much of your money for themselves, they will have to rebate it back to you. If anyone actually bothered to find out what is in the bill, everyone would be very enthusiastic about it. In fact in polls, if the items in the bill are listed separately and people asked about them, they invariably LOVE them. But if they are asked about the bill without defining what's in it, they say they hate it. Kudos to FOX news and the right wing nuts who have spent billions of dollars in advertisements to make you hate the bill without knowing what's in it at all. Of course it is the rich CEOS and Big Pharma who want to keep getting lots of your money to keep them in yachts and private jets. Read up on the actual bill - you'll LOVE it.

Thank you Porter and Alice for speaking the truth! AND for bothering to find out what is actually in the law instead of following the rest of the lemmings.

Alice - Have you asked your physician's opinion of the healthcare bill? I would encourage you to do so. My PCP will take early retirement right now. He is an amazing clinician with an even better bedside manner, and he will no longer practice. If physicians think that their hands are tied with current insurance companies and Medicare, just wait until the IRS is involved. I would ask you a couple things....What has ever gotten better in your life when the government has gotten involved? What federal plan has ever come in at or under budget? Do you trust the IRS and the federal government with the healthcare of your family? How much more debt can our country absorb? NOTHING IS FREE...especially when it comes to healthcare.

Alice - One last comment...if the healthcare plan is the answer to all our prayers, why did Congress and the President deliberately exclude themselves from it?

Patch poll results so far show that conservatives are dominating this site, as their bitter comments demonstrate on most articles. The truth is, as Paul Krugman says in today's NY Times, "...unless you belong to that tiny class of wealthy Americans who are insulated and isolated from the realities of most people’s lives, the winners from that Supreme Court decision are your friends, your relatives, the people you work with — and, very likely, you."

Trudy - I suggest you read everything both pro and con (from both from those you side with and those you don't).

To answer your question - since the act was passed, my health care insurance premiums are lower, my pharmacy is charging my wife and me less for meds and my doctor has been more diligent about checking to see how I'm doing healthwise. Most of the other provisions of Reform haven't affected me directly, but I like preventing insurance companies from gauging me on premiums or dropping coverage should I become chronically sick.

How is it "lying" about taxes, when the President couldn't know in advance how Chief Justice Roberts would interpret that aspect of the bill (& therefore, something Pres. Obama had no control over)?

Also, in a very real sense, you could make the case that the premiums we've always paid to private health insurance corporations has represented nothing more than a "tax." The only difference now is that they can't gauge us on the premiums and can't screw customers by denying them benefits they deserve.

This debate should be about (a) how much Health Care Reform helps people, (b) whether it's worth the cost, (c) whether it can be effective and (d) whether some people's rights are being unfairly crushed.

On that latter note - I don't think requiring the uninsured to ante up some money to help cover costs is any more an infringement on individual rights than requiring a driver to pay to register a vehicle or obtain a drivers license.

i can tell you 1 thing that is in it, is that ALL drs who are now mandated to put patient files online, and do it with new computers by the end of this year get 44000 dollars! i am not joking, went to eye dr who accepts medicare and he told me that each dr in a practice is eligible for this....the new computer and software maybe costs 2000 dollars but for doing it by the end of this year they get a 44000 dollar bonus/rebate and if the dr take medicaid they get an additional 16000dollars!!!!

I'm a life long christian,Democrate (not sure for how much longer after Obama's buy health ins/take a tax penality mandate)My hubby lives on Social Sec due 2 a car accident,& I'm unemployed once again)With 3 kids 2 support,we can't afford 2 pay for ins.Pd 4 United Health Care Cobra Ser 4 five yrs @ $1,ooo monthly.My son had hand surgery left us w/ a $40,000 hospital bill,that I struggle to pay on!WEnt 2 apply for Mich medicade & MY Child Ins @ DHS,they told me I"d have 2 sign over 2 them the following:r families Gerber & Globe Life Life Ins Polices 2 them,give up r emergency fund savings,give up my retirement savings;& give them my kids' collge funds.I told them 2 go 2 Hell & if they wanted me 2 I'd draw them a rode map!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shelly, you are absolutely right. If anyone believes they have not been paying for the uninsured all along, they are in lala land. And for the record, it's not illegals who make up the largest group, it's the poor and working poor. If we are the best country in the world, why don't we provide health care to our citizens, like other wealthy, western countries? If we had to pay more tax to cover health care, and employers no longer had to foot the bill, doesn't it make sense they could pay people more? If people were paid more, they could afford the increased health care tax. Unless of course, the "job creators" kept the savings to themselves, which conservatives would encourage I'm sure. That's why we have this imperfect ACA, at least it's a step in the right direction. Maybe the GOP will offer their own plan, but I'm not holding my breath, since they are in bed with the insurance and health care companies. Gotta keep those checks coming in for the next election!

Your grandparents and great parents were accepted when the immigrated to this country and now you pretend to be the founder of this land. Every major legislation that has over time proven good for America met with opposition at the onset e.g. Highway Act that transformed American highways, the Civil Rights Legislation, The Great Deal that provided for war veterans and others, the welfare and unemployment system. Republicans like you voted against these things but they proved to be crucial to the development and greatness of America. So the health Care Law is - It is damn time! Americans deserve to have affordable health Care coverage. Truman, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Reagan and Obama will be remembered for great things accomplished while in Office.

I never understood the importance of healthcare (or lack of it) until a year ago when both my husband and I lost our jobs. We are both still only able to find part time jobs and have been without health insurance for almost a year. Thank God we are still (fairly) young without any serious health problems. This bill is meant to help people like us, who can't help that we don't have health insurance right now but still have the right to be treated to health benefits as citizens of this country!

Coming from the generation of the Cranberries, I will quote their album title: "Everybody Else Is Doing It, So Why Can't We?" So many other countries offer healthcare to their residents because they are citizens of the country, not because they are able to obtain (and keep) full time work. What about those who have lost their jobs, are between jobs, single mothers and others who aren't able to find full time work and therefore have no health insurance? Somehow no one ever thinks about them.

Trudy...we need these new immigrants. How else can we grow union membership and the Democratic party. We need to provide aid, housing, daycare, medical care, etc. to make it easier for them.

The right wing, yelling about wanting the freedom to NOT have to buy health insurance, are actually saying that they don't want to pay for their health care (even if they could afford it) and want the "freedom" to make YOU pay for it. If they get cancer or are badly injured and show up at a hospital with no insurance, they get treated, run up a bill for several hundred thousand dollars (which even rich people would have a very hard time paying out of pocket), and guess who pays for it? They want the "freedom" to be freeloaders on YOUR dime. This illegal immigrant worry is totally ridiculous. Any place they leave is now becoming an economic basket case, since they do work really need done but that we Americans won't do, and they do it very cheaply and generally get no govt benefits. Yes if they get desperately ill they do go to the emergency room for treatment - same as the millionaire American citizens who want to be "free" to have you pay all their bills. But I worry a lot more about the rich dead beats - there are a LOT more of those than illegals, who are now starting to leave the USA in droves, to the detriment of our society and economy. By the way, you HAVE ALREADY BEEN paying for emergency care for those rich deadbeats now for many years - that is much of the reason why our health care costs are twice or more what they are in every other civilized country - and with worse outcomes as well.

The bill actually means that you will have to pay less, since you will no longer have to pay for other freeloading people's insurance. If you are too poor to afford the insurance, then the bill will subsidize your payments - and also subsidize your employer's costs if they are paying for your insurance. The penalty "tax" is actually too small - WAY less than it should be to be equitable - and furthermore there is nothing in the bill that mandates any sort of consequence if you don't pay - so they ask you to pay, and if you don't, then you get to freeload anyway and too bad for them (and those of us who do pay for insurance). If we had single payer (the way other civilized countries do), then you would ONLY have to pay for your own care - and would pay a LOT less.

Can you explain to me how you've come to that conclusion?

I didn't get that memo. Should I go home now?

Businesses with fewer than 50 employees is approximately 96% of all small businesses. Therefore, only 4% of small businesses will be required to fulfill the individual mandate.

Sorry, Dentss Dunnagun: Under the ACA (ObamaCare) small businesses will get tax cuts to help them pay for health care for all employees.

I have been told by ER staff right here in Brick, that when the illegals bring a baby with an infection to the ER, they don't call a cab or drive - they call an ambulance. Obamacare will not rectify this. To me it is more of the same - if you can afford cadillac insurance you will get it. I think most of us will have long waits to see doctors and be treated. As usual, the burden will fall on the working class to pick up the tab.

gjc - Obamacare does cover illegal immigrants. Don't believe what the O-man tells you when he says the bill does not mention illegal immigrants. That's only because in the bill he uses the term "non-resident" as opposed to "illegal". I read that section myself. I've probably read more of it than those who voted for it. Also there are groups exempts from it - "special exempt treatment" - so you can add that to your cost in addition to the illegals. For most of us it will eventually be a huge increase in our insurance premiums.

Enajay Steed, How can you mention Obama in the same breath with great men like Truman, Roosevelt, Kennedy & Reagan. He is not in thir class!!!!!

Neal

How so? Small business with 25 employees now offering health care are getting a tax credit of 35% of total cost. In 2014 they will receive a tax credit of 50% of total health care costs. Could you explain, what taxation?

What taxation? Small businesses with 25 or less employees who provide health care for their workers, now get a 35% tax credit of total costs. In 2014 it will be 50% of costs.

http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/does-that-1798-act-make-obamacare-constitutional/

Chris - the argument that the government can't compel people to do things / penalize people for not taking certain actions was a junk argument, and this was an example. So too was my having to registered with Selective Service or forfeit student loans.

And your article, I believe #6 was the issue that swayed the court in favor of it, no? I'm not a lawyer, and this is very lawyer-ish.

"They have seen, too, that one legislative interference [in cases affecting personal rights] is but the first link of a long chain of repetitions, every subsequent interference being naturally produced by the effects of the preceding."
-James Madison

Here's another from James Madison, while we're talking about "personal rights"...

"A general emancipation of slaves ought to be 1. gradual. 2. equitable & satisfactory to the individuals immediately concerned. 3. consistent with the existing & durable prejudices of the nation... To be consistent with existing and probably unalterable prejudices in the U.S. freed blacks ought to be permanently removed beyond the region occupied by or alloted to a White population."

Porter: The reason you need student loans is because the federal government inserted itself into education, therefore driving up the costs to the point they are today. The same holds true with Medicare and other entitlements. There is no accountability to the taxpayer, because we are a limitless source of revenue. We are becoming a welfare nation. Nearly 49% of Americans receive some measure of assistance (Social Security, Medicare, Housing, Unemployment, etc.). The tables are sure to tilt in the not-to-distant future. Those who play by the rules are demonized and forced to fund the whims of career politicians whose only desire is to keep their special interest groups coming to the polls. November should be interesting.

I'm sorry, but did you just call the Founding Fathers anti-Americans? Cause I would love to know where you got what ever it is you're smoking.

Cinnacide, that was sarcasm. I guess whatever you are smoking tunes that out

Opponents of the Health Care Act do not bother to read it because they are afraid they will see too many good things. Even some who have no health insurance and have been denied service are blinded by their "conservatism" and fail to praise the law. They will join the cacophony of voices making up false stories, exaggerated claims and fatalistic stories such as rejected Pres candidate Michelle Bachman. She cannot stop telling lies even though she was rejected for that reason during her failed campaign.

As a senior citizen are you enjoying Medicare and Social Security? You know, those government programs that keep you out of poverty and pay most of your medical bills. Oh wait, I forgot, you are a millionaire. Obamacare will strengthen Medicare in spite of all the right wing lying liars. We currently have 50 million uninsured (from the US Census) and health care costs have been skyrocketing for many years long before Obama. Health care costs would have continued to skyrocket even without Obamcare. Obamacare will improve the situation, contain costs and cover millions more people but not all of that 50 million. Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with this discussion unless you are a right wing dimwit.

Conservatives like you railed against Social Security and Medicare using the same lies being used against the ACA., but I'm sure you like them now huh? The sky is not falling Chicken Little, the sun will come up tomorrow. I'm also looking forward to November, so that I can vote to re-elect President Obama as a thank you for the ACA!

Oh wait, thats right. I suppose the clause would be to pay a "penalty tax" for not having insurance. So how does the government feel that this is going to keep everyone afloat financially? I guess they want a recession to go into another Depression.

Katie, the medical industry MUST provide care and services to the uninsured. That's been the case for decades. That carries a cost - usually priced at the top rate as the uninsured use the ER.

Right now, the taxpayers and insured are paying for that. To ask people who CAN AFFORD IT to buy insurance isn't socialist. It's conservative.

Katie: Under ObamaCare, small business employers (up to 500 employees) will get a tax cut directed at the cost of health care so that the employer should be able to offer health care to employees at an affordable cost to the employees.

Porter- "the medical industry MUST provide care and services to the uninsured"
Wrong.
All that is required under the Emergency Medical Treatment act is for hospitals to provide emergency services until a patient is stable.
If the hospital screening procedure determines the patient to not be true emergency medical case they have no obligation to provide any medical care.

The EMT act applies only to emergency medical centers.

Chris, that's what I was talking about - ER visits that get billed up.

We don't leave people to die on the sidewalk.

Chris - the cost of that hospital screening process would no doubt make us both sick enough to visit the ER. And the cost of that is paid by us.

Porter - the cost of the screening doesn't make me sick.
It goes towards covering my salary along with my wifes. ;)

Well played, Sir. Well played!

Porter...the cost of healthcare increased ONLY when the government got involved via Medicare. The same holds true with higher education. Federal loans drove up the cost in that case because when it comes to tax dollars...there is NO accountability and it is a never ending source of revenue. Allowing families to shop across state lines for insurance would be a start to help open up the marketplace and encourage competition for people's limited health insurance dollars. The feds created this monstrosity and I have NO faith that they have the means to fix it...Particularly, when the IRS will now be the enforcer of care coverage!?!? Get used to VA style coverage - horrific, loaded with red tape and ANYTHING BUT comprehensive.

Donna, would you get rid of Medicare? Yes or no, please.

Porter - I would absolutely reform Medicare to its foundation. Means test it for certain and put fewer incentives in the existing plan for over-use. That over-use is oftentimes the direct result of primary care physicians covering their behinds to protect against lawsuits. This is not only a problem with Medicare but healthcare in general. Medical insurance reform cannot occur without tort reform. They must be done simultaneously.

First off, the "Tax" is totally minimal, and there is even no penalty at all if you don't pay it. So don't go freaking out about that. Second if you are too poor to afford insurance, Obamacare gives you a subsidy to pay for it, so you only would have to pay a very small portion of your income (I think it is 2.5 % only). Not to mention business also gets subsidies to pay for health insurance for employees. Stop believing all the misinformed right wing lies about this VERY GOOD bill. The only bad thing is it doesn't go far enough - we should have Medicare for all, the way the rest of the civilized world does. Would be cheaper and better for everyone.

Alice - You're naive. The IRS is the fasting growing federal agency in our government and it is ramping up for the sole purpose of enforcement. Try not paying your income taxes then tell me about the consequence.. What SCOTUS has done is given the federal government control of 1/6 of the American economy. Obamacare is the largest tax increase in the history of the country, if not the world.

Obamacare is SIGNIFICANTLY to the right of what Nixon wanted to do. Look it up.

Now I guess Nixon is a socialist liberal who hated America and was anti-business.

Bob, where did you get the info that Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland are the happiest people in the world?????

1) their suicide rates are higher then the US. I've been to Finland in the winter a while ago, the people were not happy. You should go there sometime.
2) their paychecks go about 60% to the government to fund all those programs. Would you be able to live on 40% of your paycheck? This will not be the case for our generation, but further down the line, our children and grandchildren will be taxed in order to pay for these programs.

On the other hand, I am not against Obamacare. The system needed an overhaul and this was a FIRST step...

They weren't happy when the Nazis rolled over them in WW2, because they spend nothing on national defense. They counted on the US to save Europe from themselves. Phony wars? Were we not supposed to go after the guy who attacked America? Capitalism makes the country great and a world power. Yeah, Europe's doing real well these days.

John,

The Russians were socialists, and they killed a lot of Nazis.

Europe not doing well? Talk to Germany.

Wow, that's ironic...

Bob, if you'd like to compare us to Europe, don't forget to compare how we are fattest country in the developed world.
How we lead the developed world in diabetes percentage, 2nd in Cornary heart disease.
How much of our healthcare cost is a direct result of our lazy gluttonous lifestyle?

@ A O - here is just one of the many articles supporting Bob's statements about the happiest countries on earth. Yes, they do pay a considerable sum of taxes each year, but they then never have to pay for college, healthcare, old age,etc. I guess that would make some people happy to know that they would always be taken care of if they fall on hard times.

@A O - sorry, forgot to provide the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/world-happiness-report-2012_n_1408787.html

@beachgirl: I guess every source will have their own measure's of happiness. I saw an article that named Bhutan as the happiest country on Earth. If the government provided school, health, retirement, but took 60% of your income, would you be able to afford property ever? I don't know, I like to travel and go on vacation 2-3 times a year, eat out occasionally and occasionaly treat myself to something nice.... then when retirement comes around, if my government pension goes half to rent, I would have to keep working (at least part time) in order to continue living my life the same way.

My point was that from my one day in Finland, the few locals I did speak to weren't very happy. Grass is always greener....

Denmark sweden,finland norway don't have illegals crossing their borders.
obama needs the illegal's votes the next thing will be in october right before election our gas prices will plummet to $2 50 a gal.WHAT A COUNTRY!!!!!

It is amazing to believe that anyone would be against healthcare reform in the US. Those with a little savings are losing it with sickness and those with no savings are getting healthcare at a higher cost due to costs involved with NOT managing "health" but treating "sickness". The costs to families is measured monetarily but more importantly in sickness and death. Can a sick person hold "the kind of job" that pays healthcare insurance?

Everyone is fighting over NOT providing healthcare to workers. This is one of those reflection moments where you should evaluate what is important.

I have spent quite a bit of time in Sweden, and know for an absolute fact that they are not the happiest people in the world when it comes to health care. They are relegated to certain care facilities for different parts of their bodies; they have to wait months, sometimes a year, for medical treatment, and it all must be pre-approved. True, there are no poor people over there, no homeless and all are taken care of, but all at a price that Americans don't want to pay. And, I was told that the tax rate is 85%, not 60%.

Federal Government in our education - check the stats : we are a failure, Federal Government in the train business - check the stats: we are a failure, Federal Government in our retirement - Ponzi scheme: it's a failure! You've got it all backwards Bob Smith! Have you no streak of independence in you? You want the Federal Government in everything? The state laws and taxes aren't enough for you ? You want another layer of Federal laws and taxes on top of that?! Really? Everything you write id the OPPOSITE of a free society! Just because other countries have a failing system, doesn't mean we have to have one here! Read up on the waits for tests and surgeries those countries have, and the very limited care that is offered if at all.
Good luck and Good health to us all!

Jeanne - Actually, the polls indicated that the majority of Americans were opposed to the Affordable Healthcare Act. In fact, it wasn't even close. Additionally, if you think that this legislation is going to be beneficial to the average American family....think again. There is a reason why hospitals in upstate NY are servicing Canadians. A 6-month wait for an MRI or cancer treatment is what was just legislated in SCOTUS.

Or, you kids could do what we all had to do. Grow up and start living your own damn life.

I'm 25 and I haven't been on my parents' insurance policy since I got my job 2 years ago.

Bingo, Common Sense! The best social program is a JOB!!! Unfortunately, the economy does not seem to be a priority with the current administration.

New Jersey already had the plan that children stay on their parent's insurance. We are probably one of the more progressive states.

Jeanne, why shouldn't your kids get their own like you had to? Corporate America is in on it, not against it! Big Pharma, big Govt, Medical supply and any other Fat cat you can think of now gets a piece if your hard earned dollar, thanks to this decision.
Good luck and good Health!

Thats right Jeanne! Your kids shouldnt be forced to get a job, take responsibility or pay for the own healthcare. Thats the job of the government.

they should have a dead tax. when you die $1000 is automatically deducted from your funeral expenses and it goes toward health care for some one. like a pay forward thing.or reverse a baby tax pay $1000 towards health care for someone else keep it revolving so when the day comes it will be gone forever.I don't know what I'm talking about i'm just venting

You seem to not understand the difference between being wrong and lying, lying is intentional deception while knowing specific facts. Being wrong, within the confines of this case, would be consistent with the method of approach the WH used to defend this case I.E. Stating in front of SCOTUS that it would fall under the commerce clause, this was ruled as incorrect. Another possibility: Are you suggesting that the administration knew it would be a tax and withheld this information, if so, do you have proof? If so, you should really present it to a court of law, lying to the Supreme Court has quite a hefty punishment.

Clockwork - Perhaps the fact that the word "tax" doesn't even appear in the over 2,000 pages of this novel is proof enough that it was advertised to be something quite different. We call it bait and switch in the marketplace.

No, not a lie, sorry. The mandate can be interpreted either as coming under the Commerce Clause OR as a tax levied by Congress. If there are two possible interpretations, one constitutional and one unconstitutional, the court is supposed to rule on the basis of the constitutional interpretation, which is what it did.

Swift Loris - Wouldn't it have been nice for the President to have leveled with the American public from the outset by terming the mandate as a tax? He chose not to and in fact in an interview with George Stefanopoulis sternly asserted the fact that "IT IS NOT A TAX!" Had he called it such, he would have never received congressional approval. He got his legislation....but let's not pretty it up and say he didn't thoroughly and completely lie in misleading the public.

Donna - I refer you to the end of my comment "Are you suggesting the administration knew it would be a tax and withheld this information, if so, do you have proof? If so, you should really present it to a court of law, lying to the Supreme Court has quite a hefty punishment." This was not defended as a tax, and therefore, barring special information, you are incorrect.

Clockwork - It's clear that you are not familiar with the case presented before SCOTUS. In the 6 hours of oral arguments, the federal government attempted, without success, to promote the individual mandate under the commerce clause. It was only after that position was taking a beating that they dually put forth the argument that the mandate was protected under the federal government's taxing authority. In presenting, and later promoting, Obamacare to Congress and the American public, the taxing aspect was vehemently rejected by the administration. They called it anything BUT a tax because the plan would have never seen the light of day. Even fellow Democrats argued that they would not support a tax increase with respect to the healthcare plan. THEY LIED!

Donna- To further the point I made, if you recall the first day of hearings for this case, the court could have thrown out the case all-together if it was being defended as a tax, on the basis of the Anti Injunction Act. They declared that the case by the Obama administration did not meet this burden, and they continued hearings.

Donna- you argument does not constitute legal proof, provide a basis from which you are arguing your point, otherwise, everything you have said is speculation. It's evident that despite your assertion that I was not following the case, your inability to produce cohearent points regarding the actual legislation that took place shows that you are meerly projecting your opinion as fact.

Clockwork - Clearly, the SCOTUS decision was an activist one. What is the most disturbing is that the administration MISREPRESENTED the legislation to Congress and the American public. Without having done so, the bill would have NEVER passed and therefore never been brought before the Supreme Court. You may wish to review the countless interviews President Obama participated in wherein he stated, "The individual mandate is NOT a tax." Having been an English/Journalism major....words mean something to me. Unethical? I think so. Lying? Most certainly.

Donna - So, as I said, you are masquerading your opinion as fact, as what you have stated is not what happend and your opinion on the judiciary being activist does not actually make it so. Thank you for confirming, have a nice day.

Clockwork - Let me draw a map for you. If it was not a tax, like Pres. Obama and HHS avowed, why then would their formal argument before SCOTUS be one based upon the administration's taxing powers. I think that you are unwilling to follow the path of logic and state the obvious....they lied! Not sure how much plainer I can make it but I'll pray for your ability to reason. Enjoy the day!

Donna - Ahh, so I see, you misunderstood my argument from the outset. That's okay, you haven't shown the critical thinking skills to have reasoned it in the first place (See, I can make quips at you, too!).

Nothing I said had to do with the ruling itself, obviously it was determined to be a tax by SCOTUS. However, that is not the manner in which the Presidents administration approached this matter in, and thus, the first day of hearings (as I stated) went as they did.

Once again, I would have to posit onto you, if you have EVIDENCE that the administration was lying when they approached the court, and to make that simple for you that would mean the administration knew it would be a tax, and not directed under the commerce clause. If as you say, they were lying about it, it would mean they knew it would be a tax the whole time, if that is what you are suggesting, then by all accounts go to your local justices and show them, otherwise, everything you've said is idle speculation.

You've provided no legal framework to work from (like the rejection of the AIA based on the court) and your best crack at this whole ordeal has been decrying the court as activist, and therefore, your argument holds no water.

You are correct, President Obama said it was not a tax. It was Justice Roberts who said that the penalty could be considered a tax under the taxation authority of congress.

Mike - So then I'm certain that President Obama will boldly proclaim the constitutional tax position in every ad that runs this election season. The court clarified what the mandate actually means to the American taxpayer last week. Our president was just not bright enough to articulate it correctly from the get go?!?! Either he knew it was a tax and opted to keep the public in the dark (my money's on that), or he genuinely did not know which leads me to think he's not terribly intelligent (or honest).

Please fill us in on what we're missing.

How exactly are we screwed?

The most vocal opponents don't care because they're old and have their healthcare taken care of by...wait for it...the government!

ObamaCare does nothing to lower costs. Has any one's premiums gone down since the bill was signed? No. And now it will only get worse. Don't blame the republicans, Not one signed on. They offered tort reform and state competition to lower costs. Trial lawyers are in the back pocket of the Dems put a stop to that. Porter go look at a map of Europe and stay focused. See if Spain, Greece, Portugal .Ireland and Italy are in Europe.Then tell me if they need a bailout

@John57 - implementation does not take place until 2014. Of course premiums haven't gone down yet!

"The most vocal opponents don't care because they're old and have their healthcare taken care of by...wait for it...the government!"

Hi! Some of us were raised to be responsible citizens and provide for ourselves. Instead of being a bum, I went to college, graduated, and got a job that pays for my insurance.

How about that? F*ck if I'm going to work for a living while the freeloaders get stuff handed to them (by the way, look, I can stereotype too!).

The republicans invented the individual mandate idea during the Clinton administration.
The Clinton healthcare plan wanted corporations to pay for healthcare. The republicans
favored the individual mandate.

$200k is middle class now?

I grew up in household that probably never cleared $40k in today's $'s...I thought that was middle class.

1. $250k/year is not middle class...that is top 3% easy. I would say debra this would not effect you, if it does thats good you have done well.
2. These high net worth investors currently pay less in income taxes then "working" people. The maximum that they would pay is 15% (this year). You are looking at million dollar transactions, how will that effect you?
3. You won't be able to buy over the counter drugs on FSA/HSA...waaaa. Perhaps it me, I don't see value in it anyway, I will keep my money not put it in a special account that I have to use or lose.
4. They will not reduce jobs if they are still selling product, right product, right price, it will sell and keep people employed. The major players in the space GE, Siemens, Phillips pay little to no income tax on the corporation. Do you know how many products have excise taxes? Tires, fuel, alcohol, tobacco...and more.

I do not want to pay taxes as much as the next guy, but really how do you think that this works?

5. Oh Come on, Did taxes enter into your discussion or anyone you know about marriage? Discourages marriage lol...well since it is the same crowd maybe the gays will stop getting married, there is a benefit we should tout then the right would love this bill
6. It does not. If you are a religious employee you will not take these drugs/benefits. If you do not think that an invisible man in the sky cares if you are on the pill you will take them. This is the employees choice not the employers.
7. This is a lie. Congress is able to overrule any decision made by the IPAB. Fact check this...

Please use only facts, the Medicaid expansion portion was stuck down. How much other information in your rant is false?

Well stated

Commenting - Medicaid subsidies have grown and will grow further by the mere fact that our population is aging. Nearly half of nursing home residents are currently there under the Medicaid program and with the baby-boomers nearing retirement...you do the math. I won't even begin to mention the illegal immigrant drain on the program. Strike it down all you want....SCOTUS just redefined the word "tax." Very articulate summary, Debra. Thank you.

Donna- It might be if it wasn't copied and pasted without reference to the original source.
Debra - if you are going to copy and paste someone else's work, reference them in the future, this is the original source.
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/03/07/the-10-terrible-provisions-of-obamacare-you-may-not-have-heard-of/

That is great that you just simply copy and pasted...no independent thought at all. WOW. Now I feel I wasted my time in countering your undeveloped and incorrect rants

Driving - for what it's worth, I appreciated your work.

How did your taxes change with this ruling? Nothing happened yesterday that would effect your taxes. Try again

Wow...that is witty, I see what you did...hope and change lol. Do you have tour scheduled?

I have not had a refund in many years...do you know why getting a refund in not necessarily a good thing? I understand your principle, but if you think getting a refund is when you should have your money then I choose not to agree with much of what you say (and the hope and change thing...really)

So if I am part of the "struggling middle class" making $200k a year, that's $2,000 max.

That only leaves $198,000 to scrape by. Somehow. Some way.

I thought it was 2%?

Yes, there is 0 hypocrasy on the left side of the fence.

yea tell that to all the smokers and obese people consuming huge amounts of food who make the premiums go up!!! you will never have a healthy usa as long as fruits and vegtables are to expensive for poeple to buy.

oh you say this country is divided well yes it is just look at all the corp do you think they care if you have health care. ask your self that

Then why are you against a law that makes people who can afford the things you mention buy their own healthcare? Thereby relieving you and I of the burden?

you are so right bryan and if they can afford all those things they should not get any gov assistance

And being overheard sitting on the beach that they are collecting food stamps and unemployment!

It's frustrating. I am for the mandate for the very reason Bryan just stated. Yet he's against it because it's been clouded by the political fight between two C- parties.

Debra, that's just not a reasonable argument. You and I and everyone on this board are one unfortunate incident away from going from "non-user" to "high volume user" of medical services. It's only the responsible thing to do to pay into it.

God forbid...If someone rams your car at high speed, or you slip on an icy sidewalk...you are going to the ER. You will not refuse services.

If you are diagnosed with a serious illness that requires surgery or treatment...you are immediately, from that day forward, a "high usage" consumer of the product you did not pay to use. Yet you will receive the necessary treatment (albeit at a lower-tier institution.

And Debra when you or one of your kids are no longer healthy, who is going to pay for you? Don't count on the generosity of doctors or dentists if there is an emergency and you have no money.

That could be the most short sighted thing I have ever heard. what if god forbid you were in an accident. You would be made bankrupt. Do you know how much money it would cost you today to have a baby? With or without insurance we are talking THOUSANDS of dollars. I have insurance and it still cost me and my wife over 3k, but that is our nearly 50 so I can't complain (too much)

You haven't even been to see a gyno in 23 years? You could have breast, ovarian, or uterus cancer right now and not even know it. Some of these cancers can have no serious symptoms until you are in stage 4! Then where would you be? Oh, that's right getting charity care that I pay for when my premiums go up because of all the people who don't have health insurance. That's right people, you already pay for all the uninsured as it is!!!! There is no perfect solution to the healthcare issue, because other programs are still so screwed up too. Here is an example: A legal citizen collects foodstamps, but really doesn't need them since he is actually working under the table and collecting unemployment at the same time so he sells them to an illegal who uses them instead! Let's give the healthcare plan a chance before we jump to conclusions. Our president is certainly not out to make our lives more difficult. His goal is to make it better and if it doesn't work, then they can change it but they have to try something. The insurance industry is what is breaking us!

yes

Tell them it's time to grow up.

Common sense...you went to college and got a job. Good for you, do you know how many are un able to find employment? Or, if they do how many can't afford student loans plus rent, living, etc. I have ~100k in student loans while it does include grad school I went to a state college (which is cheap). I will be paying my student loans for the next 30 years and I make a decent living. Most students with lets say 50k in debt can't afford insurance, or get jobs that don't offer insurance. So you are either a lucky one who got a job, or a lucky one who didn't have to pay themselves (which really invalidates your opinion on grown up).

Our healthcare system is the most expensive and ranked about 32 globally.

It stinks.

Porter - I actually thought you were making some good arguments. And then you use that crap about 32nd in the world. A BS number from the World Health Organization.
Please name the 32 countries in the world you think have better health care services then America. I could use a good laugh.

And calling Debra irresponsible for not purchasing HI and assuming she wouldn't pay her bills if she did get sick.
You lost it at that point.

PS- car insurance in NJ comes with mandatory health insurance coverage . The only way you can opt out is if you prove you already have health insurance.
But I'm sure you knew that.

Bryan, the day that you learn how to spell will be the day when the Affordable Health Care Act is repealed.

Why? Because you say so? Or is that what Rush told you to say?

Get some facts, and come back and see me, your whine-fest isn't illuminating anything other than your sense of victimhood.

I don't listen to Rush. Common sense tells you the program costs more money to cover more people not less and the Healthcare providers will be overwhelmed, or don't you see that? What's the wait time in an ER now? How long do you wait in the Doctors office now add millions of more people into that infrastructure....

John, you bring in a ton of low-usage young people to pay for the people who can't afford it. Who, again, ARE USING IT ANYWAY. That's the economics behind it.

So your #1 concern is wait times? Yeah, screw the people who can't afford health care now. Screw the sick kids. Eff the old people. I have a 10am tee time and all these annoying poor people are in my way.

How very adult. How very admirable. How very Christian.

So what? It passed the Supremes. You can pout all day but it is not going to change anything. Put your big person's pants on and get over it.

Here's a grande idea Ric, if people here are upsetting you so much then don't read or respond to it.

Just an idea

Chris, they are boring me but upsetting me no. Many of the attacks on Obama/Romney care are outright comical. I do wish there was input on improving the law, it ain't going away. Obama modeled it on Massachusetts Romney Care.

Bryan, I'm not on here to tell you you're wrong or clueless of our of touch. I honestly believe that there is common ground here - because we both are tired of paying for people who are using services they don't pay into.

I think this law helps, you don't. But that doesn't mean I don't share your frustration with paying for people who can - and should be expected to - pay their own way when it comes to healthcare.

If the immigrants in question get a job with the work permits that they are now eligible to receive, they too will be paying their fair share of health insurance premiums. However, since they are all under age 30, they will be for the most part young & healthy. That will help reduce your insurance premiums because the insurance pool will be significantly larger.

No, buddy. Not to worry for me. In case I would get a flat, I pay AAA each year to cover me. The nation now has a form of nation health care, the prudent thing would be to improve it.

96% of small businesses have less than 50 employees so the ACA does not apply to them. They are using the law as an excuse not to hire.

Tom, you game is lame.

1. Anyone and their brother can cite an example of an outrage, such as your bottle throwing, (often fictional and lacking verification) made at illegals. I could just as easily cite rapes and murders of Americans by illegals. Who would win that contest?

2. You point against church goers is meaningless.

3. Your "fact" about illegals being paid $2. an hour for cleaning toilets never happened, that has no credibility at all.

4. Obama stopped all deportation of anyone illegal who spoke Spanish. He needs that Latino vote.

I will say your point about Regan is good. I was opposed to Regan's plan at the time and felt it would lead to all of Mexico crossing the border.

I think there is only one way to explain tom messina's post

http://zolivagyok.blog.hu/media/image/smells_like_bullshit.jpg

Reagan ONLY agreed to amnesty because the Democrats promised to tighten border security if he did so. The Democrats failed to keep their end of the bargain (quelle surprise) and Reagan later stated that granting that amnesty of was of the biggest regrets of his presidency.

Does that include getting rid of Medicare as well?

Because that worked so well for the financial industry

Numerous private insurance companies and health care providers have been around for decades. How has that competition helped you as it relates to your health care and insurance costs?

I am a capitalist, but in this case you are wrong. How has your health insurance decreased for the last decade when it has been an open market. I know mine price has increased while coverage has decreased. It has been free market and been getting worse. If you get an Ibuprofen in the hospital, one pill will cost $65. While you could go to a store and buy a case for that much. The problem is, when you are lying in a hospital bed needing that pill, are you going to say does Dr "B" charge less? Even if your doctor and faulty are part of your insurance your anesthesiologist may not be (probably isn't) under your insurance. Wait until you get that bill. How has compeition helped so far in patient care? I agree it has helped shareholders, and lawyers, unless the lawyer is patient.

gjc: The problems associated with private insurance companies can be traced to onerous governmental regulation such as the ban on selling insurance across state lines. From companies in Alabama, one can purchase health insurance for about $1500 per year while the cost from a company in NY may be four times that premium. Wouldn't repealing that regulation make sense?

You can start with your spelling.. Everything should be privatized. Why should I as a taxpayer subsidize your train ride when I never use it? Privatize Amtrak and yes it will cost more because our taxes won't be subsidizing it, but it will run more efficiently. Thereby saving the taxpayers billions.Remember the old state run DMV?

John57, then remove the $25Billion+ the airline industry gets each year or crank up the gasoline tax so that it, and it alone, pays for the maintenance of public roads. Think about $1 or more per gallon increase. Amtrak gets just a tad over $1 Billion a year.

I hope Romney values education and helps you out...

Tom get a clue and stop making your arguments off of cheap baseless emotionalism. You do carry on with nonesense. My poor brown eyes want to cry every time I read your words about the poor unfortunate “brown” man washing dishes and how I am exploiting him.

Put down the Kool-Aid and slowly back away !

Try to keep you're liberal rants to a minimum, you're begining to become unhinged

Thanks in advance !

The simple truth, Simpletruth is you are totally confused with your suppositions and seems like. But then all those upset by the Supremes’ decision are not able to come up with improvements to ObamaCare. Instead they prefer to carry on with nonsense and gibberish like a child would if sent to their room because of their bad behavior.
You guys who oppose ObamaCare had decades to improve American Health care but you said on your fat rear ends. At least Obama is doing something to improve it. In fact he used RomneyCare from Massachusetts as a model.
Personally I dislike Obama and I see him as a Chicago politician but at least he improved American Health Care. Guys like you just cry.

Isn't the simpletruth we live in a country where we have the freedom to disagree? Why do conservatives always like to tell those they don't agree with that they should leave the country.

I see you are complaining about the illegals. I guess you could leave the country. - Now see isn't that stupid retort?

Why do conservatives always do their flag waving when anyone disagrees with their ideals or opinions. As if their solutions are the correct solutions for everyone.

Laura: The minute you use phrases like '...conservatives ALWAYS tell us...', you've lost credibility. Sweeping generalizations are the last bastion of those who lack a cogent defense.

Exactly ! November can't get here fast enough

Wall Street is clearly rattled by this, the Dow is down 39%!!!!!!

Oh, wait...it's only down 39 points. Still at 12,585 despite this supposedly being the worst day for business in the history of the universe.

Gee, I guess the business world didn't see what happened yet.

Porter: The stock market numbers are a reflection of Merkel's caving and agreeing to help prop up the failing countries of Europe. The markets have been waiting for that for weeks. Yesterday, when the decision was announced the markets took a dive. As it is, they are up for the month but DOWN for the quarter.

He isn't required to do so until 2014.

Nice lol

But but but... where will the votes come from?

What is the lesson? An animal that forages or hunts for food should not be given a handout, and a person who has to buy food should starve? You typed your statement with such authority even though it is asinine way to go!

Driving: You missed the point of the growing dependence of Americans on handouts?

Tom,

Good post. If someone mentions Hannity, I've learned you need to run not walk away. No intelligent discourse will happen. I guess every society has their fringe element, unfortunately our fringe element is not so much on the fringe. Scary isn't it?

Like I said unhinged lol

http://afrocityblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/lefty_kool-aid_award.gif

@Laura...The only people that EVER mention Hannity or O'reilly or Fox News are the LIBERALS. I have yet to see one poster that has a republican or conservative or pro constitution opinion EVER mention any of the above. It is ALWAYS liberals mentioning Faux News and hannity and O;reilly. ALWAYS.

Your rudeness diminishes the effectiveness of your comments in a big way. Perhaps if you took the time to formulate a persuasive argument, your words wouldn't be so readily dismissed.

Laura: Kindly explain how you can characterize those Americans who demand fiscal sanity and governmental accountability as a 'fringe element'. I have lived in two countries under totalitarian regimes and known life without the freedoms we enjoy here. Unless people are willing to keep these temporary polticians' feet to the fire, we will gradually end up in similar circumstances. It's all a matter of degree.

We're in a double dip recession? Really? You may want to call the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and Bloomberg and let them know that, they appear to have missed it.

Romney sucks! He's a bad copy of Obama and FORCED the same crappy healthcare "reform" on MASS. Why should we trust him again? He's a one percenter vulture capitalist, and no matter what Fixed News tells you, RON PAUL could have won if you all woke up!

Cathi,

As illegals have been using the ER as a clinic and not paying for years, why a problem now? You have been subsidizing them for years.

Please provide backup that a majority of uninsured live at home with parents and are unemployed. I believe it would be the working poor who would be the majority.

It's all evil Fox News fault

True story

I see. So if you get hit by a bus while walking to the health food store to pick up colloidial silver and garlic pills, witnesses should forego calling an ambulance and simply pack your wounds with mud and splint your broken neck with tree branches?

Yes, exactly

I'm a conservative and I can't stand Faux News. There I said it. They are brainwashing the public along with the rest of the LAMEstream media!

You don't change the best health care in the world because of a few uninsured. In just 2 years have you seen how much our premiums have jumped? In 2 more years it's gets even worse.The government has never run any program efficiently and on budget. And a big OMG, all those people who died before 65 and never used medicare. All those tens of thousands of dollars they paid into the system only to have it all lost. Wouldn't their next of kin love to have all that hard earned money back. The problem is you haven't looked into the health care law,just like EVERONE who signed the bill.Not one read the bill before signing it. See Nancy Pelosi

Thomas

"The percentages of income are phased in over time at 1% in 2014, 2% in 2015, and 2.5% starting in 2016. The dollar amounts are also phased in at $95 in 2014, $325 in 2015, and $695 beginning in 2016 (with annual increases after that)."

You must work a lot of overtime to have to pay $2,000. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. No knowledge is even worse.

Thomas - you are totally mis-informed. When the ACA goes into affect you will be able to buy insurance you can afford based on your income. If you choose not to purchase insurance you will pay approx. $95/year penalty. The real problem here is that the Administration did a terrible job of communicating the Act to the American people.

Laura: Eventually the penalty for a family will be $2100 and if you refuse to pay it the IRS will double the fine to $4200

Lets not forget the large number of dead voters who will vote this November

http://cdn8.teapartytribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dead-democratic-voting-polls.jpg

chris-

Do you really think anyone with a brain is going to read anything written and sponsored by the Tea Party?

“Common sense is seeing things as they are; and doing things as they ought to be.”
― Harriet Beecher Stowe amen

Nope, but nice try.

All the people who want more government intrustion? Do you mean all those Conservatives who want to legislate what procedures women can
and can't have. I would call that government intrusion. Funny how Conservatives don't find that to be intrusive.

...isn't it true that your upset with the Supreme Court decision. . .and I believe the Supreme Court is located in a different building than the White House. . .but I guess in your mind there one and the same. . .and the White House won...Please. . .No...this time the people won. . .

Your employer is not, and has NEVER been, required by law to provide you with health coverage. If they wanted to drop your coverage for financial reasons, they'd have been able to do so every single day of your tenure there. Previously, the penalty was $0.

You are offered health coverage because your employer finds you valuable, and / or the market for the services you offer dictates they provide it...to entice you to work there.

This changes nothing in regard to your employer's decision to cover or not cover you.

And if they were to drop it, people will start shopping around for a new job. Benefits, like Health Insurance, attract talent to the job but the cutting of them can force that talent to leave. Remember that.

Oh puh-LEEZE. Romney INVENTED "Obamacare."

Shelly, how dare you confront these angry far righters with the truth. They can't handle the truth! LOL! Yes indeed, ObamaCare was modeled after RomneyCare but do not let the far right know it. They are not bright.

Shelly- If the voters in a state (such as Massachusetts under Romney) wanted to vote for a STATE health Insurance Plan , they voted, it passed. Each state in a republic such as "these united states" has the right to vote on what ever the citizens of that state want. And if the voters in that state don't agree with the decisions, they can fight to change the law or move where the laws are different. That's why I say NO WAY should this have come so far as to be a FEDERAL law. We have too much FEDERAL interference in our lives. We are a republic of fifty united states, not ONE STATE!

Sigh. The United States spent a fortune for the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Can you imagine how high off the hog Americans could be living if Dummy Dubya did not spend Clinton's paying down the debt to invade the world and lose.

Union membership: -11.8%

Working Class People whining about poor pay, crappy benefits: +6,145.1%

Do the math.

Union people get pensions and benefits for life. So they can take care of themselves after they retire. That is, somehow, "liberal".

Non-union people don't get pensions or lifetime benefits, grow old, and then rely on younger taxpayers and the GOVERNMENT for handouts, Medicare, Social Security as they grow old. This is, somehow, "conservative".

Strange, huh?

Devo, of the 218 messages posted so far, yours makes the most sense. Yes indeed they are both nitwits. Where is Ross Perot or any third party candidate when we need them?

Ross Perot, who made all his money from ONE government contract?

That one?

Ya know how he made his money? By administering Medicare in Texas.

But I like Perot, because he could take a situation like this and make money off it, as opposed to whining incessantly about his party taking a PR hit.

Ric, that's not a crack at you - I think you've added a lot here. And I'd love coalition government where we could have moderate parties that had an incentive to work together. I don't doubt the GOP could have made contributions had they not been engaged in a zero-sum game on this issue.

Well, there's Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson. Served as Governor of New Mexico for two terms, and started a construction company from scratch. He's more credible as a businessman and elected officeholder than any of the two major party candidates. He's definitely worth a look if you haven't checked out his platform yet.

Gary Johnson, Republican Governor of New Mexico.

New Mexico, the #3 ranked state when for taking in more federal money than federal taxes paid. His reign was marked by historical schnorring off federal money.

Like what happened in New Mexico? Well, ya should, NJ residents! Because YOU paid for it!

I agree with you except the far right won't be able to take on the illegal immigrant hate, Roomney depends on PAC money from corps (like Wal-Mart) that exploit the illegals. Rommney has even refused to say what he would do with Obama's declaration (he will do nothing). Is there a difference between RommneyCare or ObamaCare?

Ric - I hope that all Americans are opposed to illegal immigration. LEGAL immigration is what this country and Mitt Romney support. My parents are legal immigrants and when they came to the U.S. it was a much more demanding time. NOTHING was in their native language, nothing was free and they had no choice but to assimilate. They love this nation and the opportunities it has afforded them and do not understand how a political issue even exists in this area. A nation cedes its sovereignty when it cannot protect its borders.

Ahhhh, a coherent and logical argument and the silence that follows. Love it. Thanks so much, Donna.

Vote Romney, you aren't down with this? C'mon, my pro-business brother.

Obama collected $15.827M online, phone, in person, and via Western Union.

Aren't unaccountable figures awesome!

PR 101 - when making up figures, make 'em bigger, and add additional decimals to make them seem more authentic.

So let's go down the same road that Democrips & Rebloodlicans have led us down. What do we have to show for that? Why, only high inflation, outrageous gasoline prices, absurd health care costs, a foreign policy that leads to trillions of dollars and thousands of lives lost (all for no good reason), a "war on drugs" that puts people in prison just for possessing a plant, and finally, a national debt that stands at over $15 trillion. How could a Libertarian (or any other non-Republicrat) possibly do any worse than that?

So, are you signing my petition? Or what?

Or are you like Romney, refusing to take a stand on anything?

Michelle, it's not flip-flopping. It is evolving. Like when Obama's position "evolved" on gay marriage. Perhaps you could say Romney learned from his mistake. It is obvious you need to learn from yours. I wish you luck in that.

Are we that far away? Don't forget, the trial lawyers will still make out. I thought that was a big reason for these problems combined with the illegals using our ER's as Dr's offices. The new Obama slogan: "SOAK THE MIDDLE CLASS AND POOR".

You are quite a drama queen. Perhaps you should write for SNL.

30 years ago, Saint Ronald started us on the road to Europe, in 1982?

That is a myth, Opinionated. Canadians do not flock to the US for better health care. You want to know why SOME wealthy Europeans / Canadians and foreigners DO come to the US for medical treatment? The reason: the "deluxe accommodations" of our elite hospitals and the deluxe service they can get there. See when you have national health care services like most of Europe etc, everyone is treated the same- treated well - but treated the same. Those with mucho money want to be treated better than that... they want to be catered to, and treated like celebrities, and have personal security, etc. So, they come to the elite hospitals in the US for that. They aren't coming here because our medical care is better- they come here for the frills money can buy them.

Thank you!

If you don't go shopping for insurance, you will simply be taxed, there will be a state set up insurance market to compare pricing and plans across the board.

StayCalm - Time to worry. The CBO has scored the Obamacare plan for an average family of 4 and reported that by 2019 the family premium/penalty/tax/contribution will be $25,000/year. This plan does nothing to make Medicare solvent either. I'm a couple of years younger than you and am not planning on ever seeing Medicare or Social Security in my lifetime and am planning accordingly. If your husband has coverage by the VA, my heart goes out to you. That system of red tape and incompetence is startling to me, and our veterans deserve so much better. Always remember that nothing is free, especially where the federal government is involved.

I see you have all your MSNBC talking points in order

If you actually follow politics in this country, you would know that Eric Cantor is a supreme narcissist who would, cynically, do anything to prevent the Congress and even his own party from effectively governing this country for the good of all its citizenry, in order to further his political ambitions.

Paul-Obama didn't re-write the bill-the Senate did? They called it a Penality to be paid for through thru IRS into the Treasury. Roberts interpreted it to be a tax...just only his . . .the four others were arguing their case under commerce clause. Scalia, etal stated that the wheat farmer was carrying out no activity...Roberts said otherwise...probably why he departed from them. Used(Scalia,etal) Odgen v. Gibbons to make their first point. . .but there Marshal sided with Federalist against state rights. . .not to mention how they(4-5) love to quote the Federalist Bible to support their state rights arguments. . .there a joke, and an embarrassment to the Court?

Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure why you think that I said that Obama re-wrote the bill, Spooner. Up above, I wrote, "Chief Justice Roberts takes it upon himself to re-write the law on the fly calling the mandate a tax."
That's essentially rhetoric on my apart to explain what happened: i.e., by declaring the penalty a tax and thereby allowing the law to stand, Roberts "re-wrote the law on the fly." (Hint,hint...in effect no actual re-write took place, it just comes off seeming that way.) I hope we're clear on that.

Actually, Romney should simply recycle: "I was for it before I was against it" a la John Kerry. I guess it's a New England thing.

Mark,

That's interesting because my health insurance went up 15% this year as it has done for the last 7 years. Stop blaming it on Obamacare. Maybe you don't pay for your insurance yourself. I do. I know exactly how much it has gone up in the last 15 years. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMACARE.

I believe there is also a provision that health insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of their revenue on actual health care costs. Horizon Blue Cross is on the list to return money to its clients because they missed that criteria.

Laura and your point is what. 80% go towards healthcare costs and the systems, workers, infrastructure, etc gets paid out of the 20% left over. That is not alot to maintain any business. The facts that Obama gives big pharma a free pass and lets them keep their huge profit margins but attacks the Insurance companies for running at 2.7% is foolish.

Your employer could have dropped your coverage at any point prior to this, and incurred NO PENALTY.

So why would they wait until there was a penalty to drop you?

Makes no sense. I suspect you aren't a business owner or in management.

They are essentially fighting for the right to freeload. Makes zero sense.

Chilly, your argument doesn't make sense. If I have a car, my state mandates that if I put it on the roads, I have insurance to protect others from the harm I may cause. If I own a home near water, I can choose to go without insurance and take my chances with Mother Nature. If I have a body I should not be forced to get Health Insurance, what if I just want to pay cash if I may need services? Why does the Federal Government have to be involved? Just another middleman looking for a piece of my pie!

In order to get the benefits of the AHC act, one must have insurance. If you are an illegal immigrant BUT you are paying for insurance then you are entitled to the health care provided by your insurance. If you are illegal, have no insurance and are looking for non-emergency care you are out of luck unless you can pay upfront for care. All people, illegal or legal are entitled to emergency treatment as the courts have previously ruled.

Got news for you...Obamacare or not...Illegals have been getting care in our hospitals (energency or not) have been getting care in our hospital emergency rooms. It's called "Charity Care" and it has been around for years. Talk to your hospital doctors and nurses about it. Talk to your hospital administrators about the money their hospitals lose due to government reimbursements being insufficient. Hmmm...perhaps the "tax" could help the hospitals bottom line? Just another of my opinions.

What an intellectual thinker you are! Most Americans do NOT approve of Obamacare but DO want healthcare reform, namely lower costs.The insurance companies LOVE this plan because everybody is now forced to buy their product...DUHHH! Doctors will now stop seeing medicare patients because they can't make money doing so....how odd!!! And insurance costs will go UP for almost ALL of us to pay for the increased goodies and the increased bodies added to our healthcare plans. This is what you are celebrating? You should seek some knowledge BEFORE commenting on healthcare. Try watching something OTHER than MSNBC...any channel offering actual facts not just silly name calling...Whew!

After reading a lot of these comments, the American voter is not so much a sleeping giant as much as he is a mis- and uninformed giant.

I agree with John, this will energize voters come Novermber like never seen before. Obama and the DNC sold thier healthcare reform to the American people by claiming over and over again that it wasnt a tax. They promised to put thier monster 2,750 page bill one line for 72 hours so we could all take a look at it. Pelosi even went on to say we would have to pass it to see whats in it (never happened). This while pharmaceutical and medical companies visited the WH daily with a blank check. How many corporations and unions who are friendly to the WH have recieved heathcare waivers now ?

Lies, lies, lies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7ak__MGyw

Romney will drop 'repeal and replace' as an attack by mid-week next week. He can't leverage outrage over a concept he implemented in MA. It's a loser issue for him. And the 'replace' part requires him to come up with and explain a plan, which is off-strategy for him. His path to the WH is to say nothing, smile, wave, and hope the economy worsens. That's it.

If he's smart, he'll get back to talking about jobs and the economy.

Outrage over the ACA is already maxed out, and Obama is still polling well against Romney.

You won't see a bump in the numbers - aside from a slight change in 'enthusiasm' among likely Republican voters. Who were, ya know, voting for Romney anyway.

You merely point out that we legislate/govern in this country by majority. In Congress we have one party, the Democratic party, interested in actually governing for the common good. We also have another party, the Republican party, that is so oppositional that it has become, in the words of Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein in their book "It's Even Worse Than It Looks", a decidedly outlier party that has adopted the methods of a parliamentary political party, which places it at odds of a functioning US government. I would say that the Republican party operates as well as a rock does in the machine gears of a representative democracy with separation of powers such as we have in the United States. Therefore we can say that the Republican Party is functioning as a party that does not accept the basic premises of the US Constitution regarding our US method of government. This is reflected in the fact that the concepts and mechanisms of what is derisively called "Obamacare" actually spring from conservative Republican politicians and think tanks such as Richard Nixon, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney and the Heritage Foundation. That Republicans adamantly oppose the ACA shows a cynical about-face that they have somehow justified with mis-and disinformation through their official statements and through their well-oiled cable and radio spin machines. The Supreme Court finally legitimized "Romneycare". Romney should be proud and brag, instead of disavowing his great accomplishment.

Unfortunately, Mister Diogenes, you completely mis-read me. I am not pointing out that we legislate/govern by majority. I am pointing out that our Democratic Party friends rammed ObamaCare down our throats and then made the connection of how they paid for it in the following election. Given that, and the mindset of many over ObamaCare, I am inviting any who care, to make the further connection and posit how the Democrats will fare this coming November.
As for the rest of your comments, your open-mindedness astounds me. Of course the Democrats are fair and open and the Republicans are thugs and miscreants...how do I know that? Because you wrote it so it must be so. Spare me the pontificating. As far as ObamaCare...I don't care where it came from, it's still bad policy. In my opinion, when I read what you write it appears that you toe the company line and feel obligated to repeat all the talking points and therefore think that everybody else must be operating in that mode as well. Again, I care nary a wit where ObamaCare came from, I care only where such bad policy will take us and upon that thinking will I take my stand.

I think you have your facts wrong...don't you? Senate passed bill in 09' House on Mar, 2010(219-212)

Mr. DiBartolo, I do not pontificate, but rather restate and perhaps elaborate a little on the findings of two longtime scholars who have studied Congress over many years. For your information, co-author Thomas Mann works for the somewhat liberal oriented Brookings institution, and Norman Orenstein is a scholar at the conservative Heritage foundation (which, by the way, was instrumental in asserting there should be an individual mandate for health care). And anyone who reads their book will see that they hardly toe their party's lines. What I am pointing out is that what you term "rammed Obamacare down our throats" was actually a piece of legislation that was passed by a majority vote and signed by our president in the democratic process determined by our founding fathers in the Constitution. Yesterday the ACA was affirmed to be constitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States. That is the way our democracy works.

Yes Spooner, you are correct. I should have been a little more circumspect when I was recording the years. Thanks for the correction.

Mr. Diogenes, have you heard of 'hope and change'? Do you remember Mr. Obama promising he was not going to conduct business as usual and was going to legislate in a bi-partisan way? Can you tell us exactly how bi-partisan the voting on ObamaCare was?
Additionally, can you tell us what you think was the root cause of the massive turn-over of both the House and the Senate in the 2010 election?
BTW, keep your eyes open because I will go out on a limb and say that a year from now the piece of legislation that you say was passed via the democratic process will be gone. I might add that Eric Holder was held in contempt by a majority of the House, that included some Democrats, in a democratic process but somehow our Democrat friends don't quite see it that way. So much for the democratic process.
And finally, the ObamCare mandate was struck down as it was passed by 5 justices of the Supreme Court and declared unconstitutional and was saved only because Mr. Roberts went way outside the lines and declared the mandate a tax which was within the jurisdiction of our legislature to impose on us. ObamaCare originated in the Senate and by law only the House has authority to originate tax bills. So, exactly how democratic is it to raise a tax bill in the Senate when it goes against the rule of law?
In the now famous words of Arthur Kirkland played by Al Pacino to Judge Rayford in "And Justice For All" :
"You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order..."

The bill was originally introduced in the House, then got changed and voted on in the Senate. . .then it moved on to the House again to be voted on. . .

Mr. Di Bartolo--One of the arguments made by the administration to the Supreme Court defended the ACA based on the commerce clause of the constitution. A simultaneous second argument was also made based on the power of the Congress to tax. Mr. Roberts and the majority rejected the first argument; but Mr. Roberts and a majority justified most of the the law based on the enumerated constitutional power of the Congress made in the second argument; that is, the power of Congress to tax. Bringing "hope and change" into this discussion has nothing to do with the affordable health care argument. Neither does the Eric Holder situation. And as for Justice Roberts going "outside the lines" to rule in favor of the ACA (along with four other justices), he is permitted to do so. For another recent example of this, please read the recent New Yorker article on how Justice Roberts took the narrow case made by Citizens United v. FEC and expanded the case into a ruling that permitted a massive change to the election laws, resulting, along with a decision of the DC Circuit Court, in unlimited contributions- now deemed free speech by corporations- who have been declared persons as much as you or I. These decisions also resulted in fictitiously "independent" super PACS, all entirely legal because of Justice Roberts' expansion of the Citizens United case..

Putting aside all the verbiage, as the people expressed their feelings on ObamaCare in the 2010 elections, let us wait and see what the people have to say about it in November, 2012, then we will determine what is a democratically inspired reaction to the overreach of ObamaCare. I agree with Gov. Bobby Jindal and find it strange that the Supreme Court has found that our federal government has a constitutional right to demand proof that we have healthcare insurance but that same federal government thinks it has the authority to demand that states cease and desist requiring proof of citizenship from suspected undocumented individuals. This is what it looks like when government, originally established by, for, and of the people, goes wild.

Diogenes- the other Justices that sided with Roberts supported the Commerce argument although the annotation of Ginsberg only appears in the opinion. . .

Excuse me, but are you at all aware the Medicare is almost bankrupt? You think this is "WONDERFUL"? You state "...all the other civilized countries have the equivalent of medicare For All, and we should too." Do you mean like Greece or Spain or Italy or the other countries who can barely stay afloat because of entitlement programs they can not pay for? You think that is "WONDERFUL"? Alice you need to think about HOW MEDICARE IS FUNDED.....we borrow the money from China!!!! How "WONDERFUL" is that????????????? Remember the government has NO money and it makes NO money...All it can do TAX us for money or BORROW from others.
Wunnerful,Wunnerful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alice - I don't know how old you are but Medicare Part B premiums have nearly doubled in 10 years (from $54/month in 2002 to nearly $100/month today). What you fail to understand is the fact that cuts (some of which you may already be experiencing) will happen. The aging population (baby boomers) will be placing a strain on the system and the workforce numbers are not there to support the program as a tax base. Add to that an unemployment rate well in excess of 8% as well as underemployed driving that number higher still, the situation does not improve. It's a simple question of mathematics. You may have paid nothing for your hip surgery (and that would have only been provided you had a Medigap policy), but your medical care was not "free." The surgeon, hospital, pharmacy were all paid. Medical facilities and providers do not operate on rainbows and sunshine. Amen that your generation was able to take advantage of Medicare. Your children, however, will be left with a far inferior system when they retire.

Great you rely on Michale Moore for your info, way to keep an open mind. Just remebmber just because it is on tv or in the movies does not mean it is 100% truthful. Alice what causes the inrease in healthcosts? Insurance companies just force prices higher, is that what you think? I cannot wait for your answer.

Alice, you are a sainted voice of reason among a crowd predominately of far righters that mostly does not want to live with the facts. The far right can either stay useless and groan and accomplish nothing or the far right can become a voice of reason and work to improve National Health Care.
The far right, unfortunately, listens to simpletons like Sarah Palin and Pat Robertson. It seems the far right rather pout like babies being sent to bed then deal with the new reality and work with the flow.
I rather attack the excesses being made off of National Health Care and improve the system then sit on the sidelines with the far right and contribute nothing.

KSA, are you assuming that frivolous lawsuits filed by the trial lawyers association do not contribute to the high cost of medicine?

Ric I think your question was for Alice. But, anyways yes that is part of it.

1800's: magnifying glass, shot of whiskey, stick to bite down on, saw...leg gone.
2000's: MRI machine, anesthesia, CyberKnife...cancerous tumor gone.

Guess which one costs more? Costs have risen because medical technology has advanced. And those costs become more than individual people to bear. So what do we do in these cases? We socialize them to some extent.

Just like the country did when it went from a collection of local militias to a national military - every state can't support its own carrier group. Same as with FEMA, where it makes no sense for every state to maintain an expensive operation that will be used infrequently.

Oh, and a healthy amount of gouging on the part of the insurance companies. Look at their profits.

Porter, KSA there is a lot of gouging of health care and not just by the insurers. To put all the blame on insurers is allowing all the others to continue to gouge. Why is it that for the same prescription I get it for a third of price at Wal-Mart then Rite Aid? I am talking of a prescription Rite Aid wanted $160 and Wal-Mart $60. Why do doctors order so many unnecessary tests and then send the patient to labs they own or get a referral fee from? I could go on but you all know the truth. Health Care is a beast that needs to be tamed AND NOT PROTECTED.

Yeah and what cost to the health and welfare of its employees? Do you think even for one moment that an employer, any employer, gives one iota if you drop dead from exhaustion or an on-the-job injury? All they care about is their bottom line. Get real Schu.

GJC same goes for the goverment they are all about the next election.

Does this inlude the administrative costs for govt. Medicare vs. the administrative costs charged by private health companies? When I think of private company successes I fondly remember US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, the Penn-Central Railroad, Enron, BP, AIG, and on, and on, and on.

Unless there's a corrupt union boss behind it. he he he he!

Thank You Joe R. Someone else said EXACTLY the same thing way back a few hrs ago:
" StayCalm
7:16 am on Friday, June 29, 2012

That is a myth, Opinionated. Canadians do not flock to the US for better health care. You want to know why SOME wealthy Europeans / Canadians and foreigners DO come to the US for medical treatment? The reason: the "deluxe accommodations" of our elite hospitals and the deluxe service they can get there. See when you have national health care services like most of Europe etc, everyone is treated the same- treated well - but treated the same. Those with mucho money want to be treated better than that... they want to be catered to, and treated like celebrities, and have personal security, etc. So, they come to the elite hospitals in the US for that. They aren't coming here because our medical care is better- they come here for the frills money can buy them."

I looked it up too, and your BOTH absolutely right! America's health care isn't even in the top 20 when compared to all other modern industrialized countries in Europe and elsewhere. Even CUBA (that scary little island of dictatorship!) has outstanding medical facilities, prescription plans and it's ALL FREE.

Thank you Winston,, bout time you showed up!

Nothing like using derogatory names as a substitute for intelligent discussion and facts. And, by the way, your comment is so eloquent that it is unclear whether you are referring to supporters or opponents of the ACA! Of course it's also immensely clear from your comments that YOU have no "blind political beliefs". Unfortunately you have not made it clear what your beliefs are, despite your dyspeptic diatribe.

Ivy...why am I forced to subisidize your unproductive grown adult children....unless they are disabled they are all what's wrong with society...leeches and parasites!

Affordable? Are they chipping in?

I don't mean to offend...But I think you are mistaken...As I mentioned in a recent reply above, "Charity Care" has been around for years for those who can't afford medical care at hospitals. I don't believe there is any followup billing. Which would lead me to my question to you...How would someone possibly giving a false name or moving frequently would be billed "every step of the way"? Not that I'm implying that it happens all the time, but it does happen, in my opinion.

Pete, I completely agree that we don't know the full implications of the law. There will we be good effects and not-so-good effects. But we will all have to wait and see, and then fix what is not working with the law. Too many people are prejudging the ACA, which, afer all, is an attempt to improve health care accessability for most Americans. Then, perhaps, our technically excellent health care can have an excellent delivery system to make it accessible to our citizens. Then we will improve our our miserable overall health care and infant mortality ratings compared to other modern industrial democracies.

Oops! we=be; afer-after. Sorry!

Another voice from the peanut gallery. Thanks for such insightful comments, Kev. Not only have I never used the phrase 'death clinics' but when it was being bandied about I never paid much attention to it. But that shouldn't stop you from fabricating anything you want to make whatever pathetic point you are trying to make. BTW, pretty innovative use of the ALL CAPS mode. Did you think that up yourself?

Yes, there is a precedent. Romneycare.

then get rid of Obama, and put the pressure on Romney or vote for a candidate that will do right for the people not special interest.

another misconception; that healthcare insurance premiums will go down because of competition. What the *hill* won't tell you is that the licensing structure of Insurance companies in the US does not permit competitiveness. So your premiums will go up at the whim of the insurance companies ...afhc only addresses unfairness, but does not regulate overall raising of premiums. DO the math... I feel sorry for my teenagers and younger generation, its going to be bad.

Mark M - see how you walked right into that? That's why Romney won't be using this as a campaign issue. He'll use it to raise money and fire up the base when he's in deep red country, but it's back to jobs and the economy.

And that's smart.

Agreed that cost control needs to be addressed, some of it is in this bill (rebates coming for some) but we'll see.

Actually the precedent is HILLARYCARE. Why do you leftists forget that?

Hillarycare was implemented? When? Refresh my memory...must've missed it.

Your foot-stomping spectacle on here doesn't offer much. And Romney, if he would read your posts, would ask you to stop. He wants this issue to go away.

Support for the law got a bump after the SCOTUS legitimized it. That was your last shot. It's over. Move on to the economy or get pasted in November.

About the same as your affinity with a true leader named Winston Churchill. Remember, Winston, when your argument lacks logic, such as yours does, always revert to personal attacks and insinuations.

agree

What no clever mommie jokes directed towards antonio ?

Idiot

kevin,

When you get off your mom's policy...then you can talk with some authority. :-)

His mom's going to be shutting down his access to her computer momentarily.

Porter, Mitt Witt is a Mormom. That 'religion" is so fake.

I'm curious, Ric, do you hate any expression of faith, is it Mormonism particularly that gets your goad, or do you just hate Mitt Romney? (Disclosure: I am not a Mormon.)
Additionally, would you be interested in telling us your special name for Barack Obama with regard to whatever faith it is you believe he practices? Like for instance, what was it that allowed him to sit and listen to the Reverend Wright for 20 years and have Wright baptize his children and then, when he ran for president, decide he no longer believed what Wright was spewing?
Thanks loads, I'll be waiting for your response.

You'll never get an answer out of Ric(AKA Roland W.) because of "his" Moronism. His supposed Republican politics(he voted for Abe Lincoln) is "fake".

Paul, I will satisfy your curiosity. If you think I like Obama you should read what I said against him on the immigration report on Patch.
I would hope we do not live in a society where we have to like one candidate or the other. I want a third party candidate that is a moderate and not far right or left.
Rev. Wright is a nut but Christianity, excluding Wright, as a whole is a true religion. Mormonism is not a faith but a cult that masquerades as a form of Christianity. It is blasphemous to claim Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. I really love the story of the gold plates. LOL! To quote South Park. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!
To his credit Obama has distanced himself from Wright. Mitt Witt has not distanced himself from Mormonism. Oh, by the way, I looked into converting into Mormonism years ago but the cult was too crazy to believe.
So Paul, are you considering of becoming a Mormon or will you overlook the stench from Mitt Witt’s faith. By the way, ask David why I call him Mitt Witt. He knows the reason.

Hey, I don't go for trashing people's faiths. I was an altar boy, and let me tell you - we had plenty of strange rituals. All in all, the Mormons seem to be a hard-working lot that have solid families. And I liked "Big Love", HomePlus had it all over Lowes.

But interesting to watch is that the low-information white working class (Evangelicals) that Romney will need to win have consistently been polled as saying that they won't EVER vote for a Mormon (18%). And only about a third know he's Mormon as of today. So is Romney over-polling? I dunno, but this campaign continues to be very interesting.

Ric, try to stay inside the lines, my goodness. Where did I state that I thought you liked Obama?
BTW, if you're a Christian, that's great, but I find this particular medium a little lacking as a platform to make statements of faith therefore I try to allow my faith to color what I have to say about the issues. Christianity is like that, it colors you entire world-view. I don't have the intelligence that some of our "Christian" legislators exhibit that allows them to stand for policy in direct contradiction to the tenants of Christianity. Obama is a prime example.
Ric, you lose all credibility when you quote South Park's criticism of Mormonism when the creators of that drivel are some of them most adamant Christian-bashers around. That's like saying you liked how Hitler dealt with a particular problem where you found agreement while overlooking the millions of all types of people he murdered.
Obama distanced himself from Wright at the most expedient time because he knew he would be hammered for it. In other words, the man is a fake and a poser. Why did he wait so long?
OK, back on topic, can you answer my questions as posed in my earlier post? It's okay to say "I don't know," or even just plain, "No."

Paul DiBartolo, you are like a wife. You ask me a question and I give you an answer but since it is not the answer you, you nag me. You got your response, now
Goodnight.
P.S. Make sure you let the dog out before you go to bed. Oops, i am sorry, wrong wife.

I get it, Ric; your answer is "No," one of the suggested answers I posed to you. I realize it's tough for you to stay on topic for very long, what with all the, you know, wives and what all. Thanks anyway, though, for a very informative conversation...I think.

I'm not talking about rational, high-information people like Paul D and some of the others here who happen to disagree with me - but there's definitely a group operating off of emotion and resentment.

What is more troubling is the one woman who posted - Mama - who would CLEARLY be saved by the ACA. And yet she's angry with it. Oama has been negligent in explaining this to the American people.

Porter, I'm hoping Obama will explain how Obamacare isn't a TAX, the BIGGEST tax in US history. SCOTUS said it is. But maybe you know. Can you explain how Obama wasn't going to raise taxes on those making $250K? Or was it $200K? Or maybe $100K? Sorry - so hard to keep Obama's four year string to total BS straight!

Hey Porter, I think I was complemented...but on here, you never really know:-)

Really Project Bluebeam, must you? First of all I would say that your choice of a moniker doesn't elicit reams of confidence but, hey, I could get past that and maybe think that there's a rational human being that chose that handle...and then you ruined it by your comments. The first thing your comment brings to mind is that you're speaking from experience and that, in fact, you tried the no-seatbelt thing and thus recommend it from your own first-hand experience. Hey, it worked for you, right?
How's that for personal insult and attacks? Really, why not just stay on topic and if you have something intelligent to add, add it. That's much better than attacking those you disagree with using personal insults about polluting the Patch and do the same and more by adding your own non-nonsensical inanities.
Sorry, but that was just too easy.